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	<title>Comments on: Reading on Evidence?</title>
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		<title>By: Christopher Cloos</title>
		<link>http://tar.weatherson.org/2009/12/01/reading-on-evidence/comment-page-1/#comment-5969</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Cloos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 19:28:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tar.weatherson.org/?p=2481#comment-5969</guid>
		<description>You’re welcome Brian. Your comment highlights some of the translation that must occur when looking at the probability literature on evidence. Perhaps that is why there has not been effective communication between the epistemology and probability literature on evidence. The distinctions at play are:

*Probability: Subjective vs. Objective
*Epistemology: Internalist vs. Externalist

You’re right that a factive account will have an externalist component. I was talking across the distinctions above, and if ‘Subjective’ does not equal ‘Internal’ and ‘Objective’ does not equal ‘External’, then there is some conflation of terms in my comment. Your position now seems to be aligned with a Subjective/Externalist rendering of evidence. It is subjective in that p must be known to be true by some individual or community (note: Achinstein subscribes to an objective view of evidence in that evidence is an impersonal concept, i.e., p need not be known to be true by any individual or community). Most epistemologists endorse a subjective notion of evidence because evidence is spoken of in relation to a subject or a community of subjects. The prototypical question is whether, “S’s evidence includes e.” Your view is also externalist because of the factivity aspect. This is where Maher requires luminosity: S must know that p is true, i.e., the truth of p must be luminous to S--often as the result of empirical observation that provides non-inferential knowledge. However, this is where Achinstein recognizes the opacity of evidence. That is, p must in fact be true to count as evidence regardless of whether S knows that S knows that p is true. Things get a little tricky though. This is because Achinstein adopts an internalist constraint on evidence in addition to the externalist constraint: p must be true *and* S must believe that p is true (but S is not required to know that p is true, in terms of being able to access the truth of p). 

So, in looking at some of the details, it seems that your view aligns closer with Maher’s view even though there is some overlap with Achinstein’s view. Aligning with Maher exposes your view, and Littlejohn’s non-inferential view, to the objections raised by Achinstein to Maher’s view. It seems you could get some mileage out of looking at the exchange between these philosophers. 

Note: You might also pickup on the need to sync the term ‘know’ across the  domains. Probability theorists and epistemologists have different levels of stringency in the application of the term (probability theorists being more lax and epistemologists being more stringent for obvious reasons).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You’re welcome Brian. Your comment highlights some of the translation that must occur when looking at the probability literature on evidence. Perhaps that is why there has not been effective communication between the epistemology and probability literature on evidence. The distinctions at play are:</p>
<p>*Probability: Subjective vs. Objective<br />
*Epistemology: Internalist vs. Externalist</p>
<p>You’re right that a factive account will have an externalist component. I was talking across the distinctions above, and if ‘Subjective’ does not equal ‘Internal’ and ‘Objective’ does not equal ‘External’, then there is some conflation of terms in my comment. Your position now seems to be aligned with a Subjective/Externalist rendering of evidence. It is subjective in that p must be known to be true by some individual or community (note: Achinstein subscribes to an objective view of evidence in that evidence is an impersonal concept, i.e., p need not be known to be true by any individual or community). Most epistemologists endorse a subjective notion of evidence because evidence is spoken of in relation to a subject or a community of subjects. The prototypical question is whether, “S’s evidence includes e.” Your view is also externalist because of the factivity aspect. This is where Maher requires luminosity: S must know that p is true, i.e., the truth of p must be luminous to S&#8212;often as the result of empirical observation that provides non-inferential knowledge. However, this is where Achinstein recognizes the opacity of evidence. That is, p must in fact be true to count as evidence regardless of whether S knows that S knows that p is true. Things get a little tricky though. This is because Achinstein adopts an internalist constraint on evidence in addition to the externalist constraint: p must be true <strong>and</strong> S must believe that p is true (but S is not required to know that p is true, in terms of being able to access the truth of p). </p>
<p>So, in looking at some of the details, it seems that your view aligns closer with Maher’s view even though there is some overlap with Achinstein’s view. Aligning with Maher exposes your view, and Littlejohn’s non-inferential view, to the objections raised by Achinstein to Maher’s view. It seems you could get some mileage out of looking at the exchange between these philosophers. </p>
<p>Note: You might also pickup on the need to sync the term ‘know’ across the  domains. Probability theorists and epistemologists have different levels of stringency in the application of the term (probability theorists being more lax and epistemologists being more stringent for obvious reasons).</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Weatherson</title>
		<link>http://tar.weatherson.org/2009/12/01/reading-on-evidence/comment-page-1/#comment-5964</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Weatherson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 15:36:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tar.weatherson.org/?p=2481#comment-5964</guid>
		<description>Thanks Christopher, those references are very helpful.

I actually do think that p must be known to be evidence. But I don&#039;t know why having a truth requirement would make the view more externalist than Maher&#039;s. After all, any view which puts a factive requirement on evidence will have an externalist component.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Christopher, those references are very helpful.</p>
<p>I actually do think that p must be known to be evidence. But I don&#8217;t know why having a truth requirement would make the view more externalist than Maher&#8217;s. After all, any view which puts a factive requirement on evidence will have an externalist component.</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher Cloos</title>
		<link>http://tar.weatherson.org/2009/12/01/reading-on-evidence/comment-page-1/#comment-5962</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Cloos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 03:57:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tar.weatherson.org/?p=2481#comment-5962</guid>
		<description>For an overview of the nature of evidence you might look at the probability literature, which is not limited to a Bayesian approach. The best one volume work in this area is Achinstein’s The Book of Evidence (2001). You might also look at the debate between Maher (1996) and Achinstein (1996). To some degree the non-inferential view about evidence aligns with Maher’s view about evidence since it requires, as characterized by Achinstein, “(i) that e must be known to be true, (ii) that e must be known to be true without calculation, and (iii) that e must be known to be true without being inferred from any other proposition under consideration” (Achinstein 1996: 180). From what I can tell, however, your view is not like Maher’s in that it is an externalist view of evidence. It must be the case that e is true, but it need not be the case that e is known to be true. 

Some neglected works on evidence and epistemology are N.M.L Nathan’s Evidence and Assurance (1980) and Moser’s Knowledge and Evidence (1989). Haack’s Evidence and Inquiry (1993) is typically only mentioned in relation to structural issues in epistemology, but in formulating Founherentism Haack discussed things about evidence that it might be worth looking at. Haack talks about the distinction between evidential and non-evidential components of belief (pp. 76-77).

Those are a few references off the top of my head.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For an overview of the nature of evidence you might look at the probability literature, which is not limited to a Bayesian approach. The best one volume work in this area is Achinstein’s The Book of Evidence (2001). You might also look at the debate between Maher (1996) and Achinstein (1996). To some degree the non-inferential view about evidence aligns with Maher’s view about evidence since it requires, as characterized by Achinstein, “(i) that e must be known to be true, (ii) that e must be known to be true without calculation, and (iii) that e must be known to be true without being inferred from any other proposition under consideration” (Achinstein 1996: 180). From what I can tell, however, your view is not like Maher’s in that it is an externalist view of evidence. It must be the case that e is true, but it need not be the case that e is known to be true. </p>
<p>Some neglected works on evidence and epistemology are N.M.L Nathan’s Evidence and Assurance (1980) and Moser’s Knowledge and Evidence (1989). Haack’s Evidence and Inquiry (1993) is typically only mentioned in relation to structural issues in epistemology, but in formulating Founherentism Haack discussed things about evidence that it might be worth looking at. Haack talks about the distinction between evidential and non-evidential components of belief (pp. 76-77).</p>
<p>Those are a few references off the top of my head.</p>
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		<title>By: clayton</title>
		<link>http://tar.weatherson.org/2009/12/01/reading-on-evidence/comment-page-1/#comment-5960</link>
		<dc:creator>clayton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 03:39:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tar.weatherson.org/?p=2481#comment-5960</guid>
		<description>Hey Errol,

Where&#039;s your costume?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Errol,</p>
<p>Where&#8217;s your costume?</p>
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		<title>By: jeremy</title>
		<link>http://tar.weatherson.org/2009/12/01/reading-on-evidence/comment-page-1/#comment-5959</link>
		<dc:creator>jeremy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Dec 2009 02:35:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tar.weatherson.org/?p=2481#comment-5959</guid>
		<description>Thanks Errol--I only just took a look at the paper last night, and this definitely helps!  Thanks for the references also.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Errol&#8212;I only just took a look at the paper last night, and this definitely helps!  Thanks for the references also.</p>
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		<title>By: Hilary Kornblith</title>
		<link>http://tar.weatherson.org/2009/12/01/reading-on-evidence/comment-page-1/#comment-5956</link>
		<dc:creator>Hilary Kornblith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 14:26:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tar.weatherson.org/?p=2481#comment-5956</guid>
		<description>One of my grad students, Jeff Dunn, has a large chunk of his thesis--now virtually finished--devoted to this very issue.  He&#039;s done a lot of interesting work on this.  You should write him to see what he&#039;s doing:  jdunn@philos.umass.edu  (Braden: you may remember talking with Jeff when we went out for beers at Northwestern.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of my grad students, Jeff Dunn, has a large chunk of his thesis&#8212;now virtually finished&#8212;devoted to this very issue.  He&#8217;s done a lot of interesting work on this.  You should write him to see what he&#8217;s doing:  <a href="mailto:jdunn@philos.umass.edu">jdunn@philos.umass.edu</a>  (Braden: you may remember talking with Jeff when we went out for beers at Northwestern.)</p>
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		<title>By: Errol Lord</title>
		<link>http://tar.weatherson.org/2009/12/01/reading-on-evidence/comment-page-1/#comment-5955</link>
		<dc:creator>Errol Lord</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 13:26:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tar.weatherson.org/?p=2481#comment-5955</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Mark Schroeder has an interesting paper called “Having reasons” that touches on some of this stuff. It’s mostly on practical rationality, but at the end he draws an interesting analogy to the perceptual case. In short, he thinks that to have a reason is to stand in a certain relation (believing) to a proposition, but a proposition cannot be a reason unless it is true. He then claims that items of evidence are reasons for belief, so: having perceptual evidence is a matter of standing in a certain relation (perception) to a proposition, but a proposition cannot be evidence unless it is true.&lt;/i&gt;

This isn&#039;t exactly Schroeder&#039;s view. He thinks that there are two types of reasons relations--the objective and the subjective. Objective reasons have to be true, but subjective reasons needn&#039;t be (they just have to have the following property: if they were true, they would be objective reasons). Moreover, he thinks that one can have a subjective reason if one has a presentational attitude with that proposition as its content. He thus denies that you have to stand in some positive justificatory relationship (e.g. knowing) in order to have a (subjective) reason. He thinks that justification is a function of subjective reasons--i.e. he thinks that justification supervenes on subjective reasons. He thinks that dropping both the factivity condition on having (subjective) reasons and the high bar allows one to give a simpler, more explanatory unified account of perceptual justification. But it is very important for this story that subjective reasons needn&#039;t be true. (Also, I should point out that he is neutral about some of the story I just told in &quot;Having Reasons.&quot; I take some of this story from the paper I mention below and some of his other work (Slaves of the Passions, for example). 

He has another paper forthcoming in a volume about reasons for belief that further draws the lessons out in epistemology. It&#039;s called &quot;What Does it take to &#039;Have&#039; a Reason,&quot; and it&#039;s available on his website. (Full disclosure; I have a paper coming out in Phil Studies that is a response to his original &quot;Having Reasons.&quot; It&#039;s called &quot;Having Reasons and The Factoring Account.&quot;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Mark Schroeder has an interesting paper called “Having reasons” that touches on some of this stuff. It’s mostly on practical rationality, but at the end he draws an interesting analogy to the perceptual case. In short, he thinks that to have a reason is to stand in a certain relation (believing) to a proposition, but a proposition cannot be a reason unless it is true. He then claims that items of evidence are reasons for belief, so: having perceptual evidence is a matter of standing in a certain relation (perception) to a proposition, but a proposition cannot be evidence unless it is true.</i></p>
<p>This isn&#8217;t exactly Schroeder&#8217;s view. He thinks that there are two types of reasons relations&#8212;the objective and the subjective. Objective reasons have to be true, but subjective reasons needn&#8217;t be (they just have to have the following property: if they were true, they would be objective reasons). Moreover, he thinks that one can have a subjective reason if one has a presentational attitude with that proposition as its content. He thus denies that you have to stand in some positive justificatory relationship (e.g. knowing) in order to have a (subjective) reason. He thinks that justification is a function of subjective reasons&#8212;i.e. he thinks that justification supervenes on subjective reasons. He thinks that dropping both the factivity condition on having (subjective) reasons and the high bar allows one to give a simpler, more explanatory unified account of perceptual justification. But it is very important for this story that subjective reasons needn&#8217;t be true. (Also, I should point out that he is neutral about some of the story I just told in &#8220;Having Reasons.&#8221; I take some of this story from the paper I mention below and some of his other work (Slaves of the Passions, for example). </p>
<p>He has another paper forthcoming in a volume about reasons for belief that further draws the lessons out in epistemology. It&#8217;s called &#8220;What Does it take to &#8216;Have&#8217; a Reason,&#8221; and it&#8217;s available on his website. (Full disclosure; I have a paper coming out in Phil Studies that is a response to his original &#8220;Having Reasons.&#8221; It&#8217;s called &#8220;Having Reasons and The Factoring Account.&#8221;)</p>
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		<title>By: John Turri</title>
		<link>http://tar.weatherson.org/2009/12/01/reading-on-evidence/comment-page-1/#comment-5951</link>
		<dc:creator>John Turri</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 03:06:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tar.weatherson.org/?p=2481#comment-5951</guid>
		<description>I have &lt;a href=&quot;http://john.turri.org/research/reasons_ontology.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;a paper&lt;/a&gt; that surveys some of the terrain, and argues for a particular view of reasons. I take it that evidence works the same way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have <a href="http://john.turri.org/research/reasons_ontology.pdf" rel="nofollow">a paper</a> that surveys some of the terrain, and argues for a particular view of reasons. I take it that evidence works the same way.</p>
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		<title>By: jeremy</title>
		<link>http://tar.weatherson.org/2009/12/01/reading-on-evidence/comment-page-1/#comment-5950</link>
		<dc:creator>jeremy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Dec 2009 02:37:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tar.weatherson.org/?p=2481#comment-5950</guid>
		<description>Mark Schroeder has an interesting paper called &quot;Having reasons&quot; that touches on some of this stuff.  It&#039;s mostly on practical rationality, but at the end he draws an interesting analogy to the perceptual case.  In short, he thinks that to have a reason is to stand in a certain relation (believing) to a proposition, but a proposition cannot be a reason unless it is true.  He then claims that items of evidence are reasons for belief, so: having perceptual evidence is a matter of standing in a certain relation (perception) to a proposition, but a proposition cannot be evidence unless it is true.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark Schroeder has an interesting paper called &#8220;Having reasons&#8221; that touches on some of this stuff.  It&#8217;s mostly on practical rationality, but at the end he draws an interesting analogy to the perceptual case.  In short, he thinks that to have a reason is to stand in a certain relation (believing) to a proposition, but a proposition cannot be a reason unless it is true.  He then claims that items of evidence are reasons for belief, so: having perceptual evidence is a matter of standing in a certain relation (perception) to a proposition, but a proposition cannot be evidence unless it is true.</p>
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		<title>By: Fritz Warfield</title>
		<link>http://tar.weatherson.org/2009/12/01/reading-on-evidence/comment-page-1/#comment-5949</link>
		<dc:creator>Fritz Warfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Dec 2009 23:15:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tar.weatherson.org/?p=2481#comment-5949</guid>
		<description>How about starting with Tom Kelly&#039;s Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy article on Evidence?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How about starting with Tom Kelly&#8217;s Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy article on Evidence?</p>
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